We invited Danny and co-curator Naomi Odhiambo to reflect on their experience of creating the Queer B-Cademy this year, using some key points that arose from the Queer Bubbles discussion in Glasgow in 2019 as a starting point. Here is a transcription of their discussion, which has been translated from German to English.
DANNY
This is our little reflection on our project Queer B-Cademy, but also about the topic of “queer bubbles.” This interview is part of Rosana Cade’s and Ivor McAskill’s project at the Take Me Somewhere Festival in Glasgow of 2019, that included a talk and a workshop in which we reflected “queer bubbles” as well. In that workshop, a lot of questions came up and they became our tools, ten of which will serve as the frame of that interview.
NAOMI
Yes.
DANNY
The first question would be:
1.
NAOMI
„Does belonging mean happiness?“
I would say yes. For sure. Although, I guess you could give two answers to that one. If we wanna look at it from a utopian perspective, I’d say: yes. But in this world and this society you would have to ask: “do I really want to belong to a heteronormative, racist and capitalist society? Would I be “happy” if I felt I belong to it? I am not sure.
DANNY
But this world isn’t a “bubble” If we think of it in terms of bubbles it would mean to find belonging outside of this world. Then we’re talking about safe spaces or some sort of mental or spiritual family, a community. Then it might be the case. If that’s really happiness depends on whether it is an environment in which you can thrive, in which you can live and grow or it might just be the lesser evil in which you hide, but you don’t have anything that..(nourishes you). And then you prefer being on your own with yourself. That also exists.
NAOMI
True. It really depends on your own self.
DANNY
If we’re talking about happiness, I agree.
NAOMI
It depends on your well-being and the relationships you are forming and maintaining and also the relationship one has with oneself. I’ve read something recently about how despite experiencing the same kind of trauma, we are not necessarily able to establish a connection to one other. It takes more than that. And I realised: that sounds about right. I note that especially in queer spaces where oftentimes I wonder: who are those people? Do we have the same wavelength? Do we speak the same language? In the end it all comes down to interpersonal connections.
DANNY
As much as you want to establish those connections in this aspect and want to start from there you realize that you’ve allowed yourself to be influenced by superficial factors. I relate to this as a small town boy who moved to the big city and has to figure out big city life. I am looking back on a course that began with identifying as a gay man, and - though it didn’t play such a big role at that point – as a first generation immigrant. I always had this sense of having to integrate and getting through all the insecurities in that process. It seems like I had to move hand over hand through several peer groups. And it changed over time. At first it is enough to know that in a big city you can go to a club. This is the first experience of freedom. And you belong to that predominantly cis-male, white gay community, where with time you begin to notice that there are also dynamics at play that aren’t always very healthy. The gay community has a very toxic side as well. And then you discover the subdivisions of the subculture and look for your people with more precision. And now I’m 41 and realize, I end up with a bunch of friends. And that’s enough. And they’re all very diverse. What it boils down to is the synergy you feel with those people.
NAOMI
That’s how I’m already feeling now.
DANNY
Good for you!
NAOMI
Yeah, I have my few friends and that’s also enough for me.
2.
DANNY
Is a safe space founded on unconditional solidarity?
NAOMI
Of course. I think it is a real foundation for a safe space. “Unconditional solidarity” is really a nice term.
DANNY
Everything that is unconditional… well, I wonder if it is almost too utopic in our world.
NAOMI
It is quite utopic.
DANNY
Because in specific contexts we always seem to have to make a choice. So the question is, when conflicts occur within a safe space, which of course happens – I would ask: Are safe spaces still safe if we are dealing with conflicts within them? Or does it mean that conflicts mustn’t occur?
NAOMI
But I think dealing with conflicts is ok, no? Solidarity doesn’t mean that there aren’t any conflicts. You can talk about them together.
DANNY
The safety in terms of security of a space and also the unconditional solidarity requires… – and there we end up with the own self again – because the security I generate in that space needs to be in myself first.
NAOMI
It also requires a certain knowledge, because unconditional solidarity unfortunately isn’t something we’re born with. Many things must be unlearned and learned, before you reach that foundation of saying: now I can approach people differently, because I have done the work and acquired knowledge about myself, about the society, about people.
DANNY
And oftentimes you have to hold up a mirror to people, whenever you notice that they – and I am no better – seem to be walking this planet and think they have understood a few things about it. You feel good about yourself. And then you do something that is being interpreted in a way you didn’t think of. That oftentimes becomes an conflict that has to do with privileges and a certain knowledge. Solidarity also means listening. If you can’t listen, you are not showing solidarity. I guess the communication structures are key here. But it’s also about energy. If I am constantly feeling hurt, insecure and fragile and I bring that energy into the space, it creates a certain vibe. You don’t want to walk on eggshells around someone, but I am not sure if we can say that – actually we can’t – always expect that level of awareness on all sides and ends. With people that have been hurt a lot and who need a safe space the more, we can’t be expecting them to just grow a thicker skin.
NAOMI
No that’s inacceptable.
DANNY
So the question is how do you achieve that unconditional solidarity in a safe space? Maybe it needs to mean: if in doubt, prioritise the “weakest link” in the space, if it’s fair to call it that. Or better: prioritise the most vulnerable ones. Does that make any sense?
NAOMI
Well, not only that. Unconditional solidarity sounds like a state of being to me. It’s knowing that there is someone and they are hurting, not feeling well or experienced some kind of injury and I am there no matter what – without having to understand it. I’m just there. And I do think that something like that is really rare. This kind of implicitness to take action without having to think about it first.
DANNY
Without having to check the circumstances of what’s happening or the person’s identity first.
NAOMI
Exactly.
DANNY
Or without checking if I can understand their struggle. Because most of the time we end up not being able to grasp the whole context of it.
NAOMI
Yeah, but I would answer the initial question with a “yes”.
3.
DANNY
Who is in charge of inviting people in?
(long silence.)
NAOMI
That’s a really good question.
DANNY
Does it need an invitation? You know I think the question isn’t really if there is an invitation, if everything is based on unconditional solidarity. I think it’s more of an open call. And the next step would be … I don’t know …
NAOMI
… to create an awareness team, maybe?
DANNY
Maybe, I mean what if you notice someone manipulating the bubble from within or taking advantage of it somehow. That question pops up. But still it needs to be an open call instead of an invitation. It depends on the bubble itself. Mostly, queer safe spaces are directed exclusively at specific groups – women, men, trans people … I don’t know …
NAOMI
BIPoCs…
DANNY
… yes or people with disabilities. So there is always a set condition that comes with it, so that doesn’t mean people need an invitation, just…
NAOMI
… just an open call and then trusting that it will attract people in who are addressed.
DANNY
And then it comes down to the energy again – you never know it you let someone in who is good for the group. But even that - what does it mean being “good for the group”? Then we have the question who decides about who is in and who needs to go.
NAOMI
I think that every event needs to decide about that beforehand. What kind of energy should be maintained, what are the boundaries that mustn’t be crossed in that space? That’s a decision that needs to be made by everyone for themselves, but also by the group for the event and then stick to it. Those decisions can change depending on the event as well.
(Pause.)
4.
What is our responsibility as curators/artists?
I think as curators we have the responsibility to create a space where everyone feels welcome, can be heard and that the message they want to convey is being treated with respect.
DANNY
Curating a festival like ours means we have a lot of responsibility towards the audience and the artists at the same time. We need to set up good conditions for both groups to connect to each other – and not just temporarily for that event, but also for the long term, so everyone can profit from that connection. New people come together, new perspectives are presented, new contacts are formed, people not only talk, but also celebrate. We need to create something that inspires continuity for both groups: the audience that wants to come back and the artists that want to come back to perform. That way we create something that foundations would want to continue supporting and Kampnagel as a venue would want to continue hosting. We need to create something promising.
NAOMI
Totally. I also think there is also the responsibility of being in touch with people and the things that are happening in the city. To approach people directly and create spaces that are underrepresented. That’s what I would add to it.
5.
“Queer introductions before queer shows.” I think that’s super important.
DANNY
I don’t even really know why … How do you interpret that statement? Because, I mean, it’s on the list, but I don’t really remember what it meant.
NAOMI
Oh, ok – well I thought that it meant that queer voices are announcing the shows as well.
DANNY
Ah, ok, wait… - “queer introductions before queer shows”
NAOMI
Or does it mean…? Hm. I don’t understand.
DANNY
I don’t know either.
NAOMI
Shall we skip this one?
DANNY
But I think it means….
NAOMI
Or is it about doing like a 1-on-1 talk about queerness before the show? Is it that?
DANNY
It could be that. But let’s just interpret it in all the ways possible. So to have a queer person giving an introduction to the queer show that will follow. It’s a valid interpretation.
NAOMI
Yes, exactly.
DANNY
Yes, why not. I guess I also read that as shows being just shows, but – I remember Alok Vaid-Menon pointing out something around: “Why does it require a show context to bring up queerness? Why do we get to live it only in theaters, in concerts?” Basically: why does it need to be this artsy, or why does it need to be constructed as an reenactment of a life for an audience? And why can’t we have what is ok to perform on stage in every day life? Why do we have to create a bubble instead of designing everyday life in a way that allows marginalized people, who usually would experience a lot of discrimination, to be included in a mainstream that lets them live.
NAOMI
Yeah, that’s crazy.
DANNY
The problem is always looking a certain way and allowing yourself the freedom to express yourself. The bottom line is: safe queers spaces are oftentimes clubs and theatres, where you can express yourself to the fullest. That’s why they are interesting to queer people in the first place. Whenever they express themselves on the street however, they are mistaken for “performing” something that is most authentically them. That’s is what Alok Vaid-Menon made me understand. They are not doing anything for shock value or being super extra. But this kind of visibility…
NAOMI
… is only validated in a performative context.
DANNY
Exactly. It will be accepted there, but not elsewhere.
NAOMI
It shows that we have a long path ahead of us. We need to push this bubble further out. And it is important for us to become aware and internalize that problem of simultaneously needing those bubbles, occupying spaces to have some sort of space at all. Because we haven’t reached that point of comfort yet, not even remotely.
DANNY
A good friend of mine recently showed me some photos from a few years ago. And he’s had all those different, amazing, conceptual looks, all sorts of hair colors, cuts and styles. Everything very classy and dandy-like. But he stopped doing that, because he wasn’t comfortable doing that in public. People would constantly ask him, why he’s doing that. He disliked the overly positive reactions in the same way as the negative ones and I totally get it. You don’t want to be neither celebrated for it, nor ridiculed or discriminated against. You just want to be you and yet invisible like everyone else. Well maybe not completely invisible, but you don’t want to be the show.
NAOMI
That’s interesting.
6.
How can we help spaces that aren’t clubs or cabarets to exist and thrive? Bookshops? We need more of them.
DANNY
Money!
NAOMI
That’s it. No really – at the end of the day all you need is money. Of course you can try and promote your spaces and use your platforms to do so. You can connect and form alliances – plan events together to support those spaces. But all that comes down to having the needed resources, the accesses and money. So you’re always depending on the city’s Ministry of Culture and their program.
DANNY
I agree. Some projects are always certain to get funding for some reason. Queer projects are oftentimes seen as something extra, a niche program that isn’t taken seriously. I remember when Kampnagel’s refugee space Migrantpolitan was applying for funding from a local foundation, they granted support for the men’s and women’s day, but not for the queer day. They justified it by claiming that it would be a “next level” thing and they would prefer to focus on the basics. In other words they simply erased queer existence.
NAOMI
Sure. That’s exactly what it means.
DANNY
I think people subconsciously assume that being queer is a lifestyle, not a life. So, ultimately how you keep those spaces running is: get cash!
NAOMI
Cash, cash, cash!
DANNY
“Bookshops? We need more of them.”
NAOMI
Yes, me too! But we need much more than that.
DANNY
I’d love a public queer living room. Like a Queer B-Cademy, but every day. Like the Marlborough theatre in Brighton. Do you know it?
NAOMI
I do.
DANNY
Maybe we can open one someday.
NAOMI
Queer B-Cademy sessions.
DANNY
Or the House of Hope.
NAOMI
True.
NAOMI & DANNY
7.
Are queer clubs some sort of churches/temples?
NAOMI
I never go to queer clubs, so I wouldn’t know. What are they like?
DANNY
These kind of clubs would need to open first. There used to be more interesting clubs when I first moved to Hamburg. I used to go there to meet people. That was when the AIDS epidemic (or even pandemic) was still present. Those spaces expressed that unapologetic claim to the right to live, celebrate, have fun and provide hope. Those were spaces that highlighted sexual pleasure to spite the stigma that revolved around it. The music and the dancing also always were a spiritual practice somehow. From a queer perspective, and having been raised Catholic, I like to compare it to a mass. People come together, there is a program, something is being explored, there are prayers. Those clubs used to play house music, which was using the terminology like “temple” and “sanctuary.” House evolved from disco music, whose rhythm, melodies and especially the lyrics can be seen as spiritual, as they focus on sexual liberation and finding oneself. The ecstatic dancing – which Polish churches never practiced, but there are other churches that do – is also part of it. The community aspect of people gathering and exchanging. I’d even compare the act of communion, the consumption of the wafer, with taking molly.
NAOMI
Whoa!
DANNY
I know, but the analogy is perfect: you take in a substance that is supposed to transform you, even if it’s just a ceremony. The queer counterpart naturally takes it way further from what the church is only hinting at as a principle. The execution of that principle in a club would be more radical.
NAOMI
Now that you say this, I am being reminded of queer festivals or queer events, where you just walk through the door and you instantly feel the connection that is palpable in the space. All kinds of events like workshops are being offered or performances by people you know, queer icons on stages… the guidelines being displayed…
DANNY
Like the Ten Commandments!
NAOMI
The Ten Commandments! But yeah, those similar guidelines keep coming up at all kinds of different events. So you kind of heard them all before and begin to internalize them. So, I couldn’t really refer to the clubs, but I see the similarities in those new festivals that center queer topics in the performances, the guidelines, and the workshops that are given a specific queer twist and translated into a queer language.
DANNY
What else is there in a church program? Readings…
NAOMI
There’s an inner circle.
DANNY
There’s a guideline for sure.
NAOMI
There are speakers.
DANNY
Yes, speakers. There is a kind of mass karaoke with the text books and the music. It is kind of similar. They play a song and you join in the singing.
NAOMI
All we need are comparably fancy venues. We don’t have those yet.
DANNY
No, indeed. Not in this city. But maybe one day, I’ll get into running a space like that.
8.
How do we allow for gaps in knowledge?
NAOMI
I guess it would require to always keep the guidelines present. So everyone is on the same page about what is being respected in the space, or what is considered important to pay attention to. The team also should be aware of the fact that people have different levels of knowledge. And because of that injuries may occur. Everyone needs to learn how to deal with it.
DANNY
It is a given fact that not everyone has the same degree of knowledge. And the potential for conflict is also heightened due to all kinds of different perspectives, especially now, with the scary current global situation. The most obvious examples are the presidents of the US and Brazil in the media. They can say whatever they want and that’s what goes. But it doesn’t have anything to do with other people’s reality. In a bubble, we naturally expect a bigger common ground in that respect. Otherwise it wouldn’t be one. Bubbles are also created by the law of attraction. Conflict can be a form of attraction too, though. For example when you really want something, but you’re blocked by your biased perception and you think: this is something for me, but …
NAOMI
… in reality it isn’t.
DANNY
Maybe by misreading the situation. But you still don’t want to be excluded from the bubble. That might become a conflict. That’s a good transition to the next question.
NAOMI
9.
When do we know when to be gentle and when to be angry?
I don’t know if we can know that beforehand.
But actually, maybe we can.
DANNY
Do you know when you can be angry and when you can be gentle?
Maybe those two don’t need separation.
NAOMI
Well, what does the question refer to?
DANNY
It has to do with a culture of conflict. When do we read something as angry? Does it necessarily mean anything bad? Anger is just a human emotion.
NAOMI
I think in a bubble, there should be room for anger. Everyone should be able to deal with everybody’s anger responsibly. That should go without saying. So we can’t decide upfront when we will react with anger and when we will choose to be gentle. It always depends on the situation. Sometimes it’s a mix of both and it is important that we know how to handle those emotions together and let them be heard.
DANNY
Anger is an important form of emotional outlet. All I want to say is: anger is not a bad thing. A lot of conflicts will not be resolved, as long people don’t know how to handle anger.
NAOMI
Anger also doesn’t manifest in one specific reaction of the body. It can take many forms. You may be crying and say_ “I’m so full of anger right now.” You might not be saying anything at all and still be angry. You don’t need to scream around or direct it at someone either. Screaming is just a physical reaction that follows the emotion, but not the emotion itself.
DANNY
And it also shouldn’t be confused with somebody having issues with anger management.
NAOMI
That’s something else.
DANNY
When you get stuck in the emotion. That’s different from just venting. And I agree – there can be a combination of both. I can be angry, yet still …
NAOMI
… there might be sympathy and love mixed into it. Both sides should be seen as important. It’s such a common society thing to categorize emotions into positive ones like joy and being cheerful that are always welcome to be expressed openly. But walking the streets, full of anger or sadness, you notice immediately that people never know how to handle it. There is no collective sympathy for it whatsoever. And this is where we get back to unconditional solidarity. What if I see someone crying on the street, or expressing anger? Do I approach them? Do I ask them if they’re ok? That’s what I mean. We should give room to all our emotions and make sure we can express them and learn to accept them and react to them equally.
Now on to your own question:
10.
How do we cope with the bursting of a bubble – its very nature.
(both sigh)
NAOMI
I guess that’s life. Bubbles burst and get recreated.
DANNY
Do you believe that for queers, this is a bit of a lifelong task that prepares them for life itself, something they grow with? I don’t want to generalize that too much, but I feel like my queerness is helping me out in life, especially with emotional growth. Because of not being able to be the one that I am in all the places and despite having the privilege of passing in many places, I never get the feeling of ever living to the fullest. And because the places where I can do that are scarce, many of which fail at my expectations, I am constantly dealing with disappointment. So disappointment became my greatest teacher. It always brings you back to having to deal with yourself.
NAOMI
I think it has to do with the notion of one’s own existence being some sort of utopia, that doesn’t ever get to the point of reaching its true nature. Because the way we approach people from our own queer perspective – it might not count for everybody, but from my own perspective – and how I reflect the world, people, love and myself never gets enough space in this world. It’s an utopian life that I live inside of me, but can’t fully express, because our society and the world isn’t set up for it. That creates a quite powerful permanent area of tension. You can try to come close to that utopia by creating bubble spaces, but it will never be what you need it to be. That is why we dwell in these reoccurring disappointments. You can have all the knowledge, but can you live it? No, because you’re always caught up in the matrix of internalized stuff, everyday life and so on.
DANNY
In the normativity.
NAOMI
You’re always in it.
DANNY
You have to operate in it.
NAOMI
That void emphasizes the disappointment even more.
DANNY
Before we sum and close up the conversation, I’d like to add something to that last question.
Because we do keep creating those spaces, and because of that permanent deficiency – we have a driving force. This is the hunger that makes us creative. It gives us the energy. It’s desire. We have to connect to it to be able to make things happen and change the world. Queers are the compass. Maybe not all of them. Things evolve. Some groups are less marginalized today, so they might not feel that desire as much. Those who get the chance to get comfortable in the normative world might not even understand the need. Those who don’t get the chance will continue. The potential lies in the oppression.
NAOMI
Everything lies in the oppression.
DANNY
Temporary or not. Everything is temporary. Let’s throw that in there as well. Temporary is the nature of all things. We are temporary too.
NAOMI
Maybe it needs a different term than “bubble”, because bubbles are fragile. But we could focus on the continuity of the movement and the transformation of the bubbles. Something that can take different forms, but that doesn’t burst.
DANNY
Something that merges into a different state.
NAOMI
Something that merges into a different state.
DANNY
So the all these questions, if clubs are temples or churches, what unconditional solidarity means – it all has to do with the flow of things. In other words: Why shouldn’t I be in solidarity what is me on an elementary level? Considering the constant change of things, we always end up in the understanding of being One. To put it in terms of quantum physics.
We’re done, right?
NAOMI
Yes. We’ve been recording for an hour.
DANNY
Great. That’s it from us.
NAOMI
That’s it from us!
DANNY
Queer bubbles for life!
NAOMI
Queer bubbles forever!